Tuesday, May 12, 2015
Off-Topic Supermarket Discussions - May 2015
Like what Acme Style is doing, I'm making a new thread to host off-topic supermarket-related discussions, especially since "business" is slow recently (I could go ahead and try to whip up something in the backroom soon), so a lot of those comments have been moved here.
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Hi Pseudo3D... I saw your suggestion on Acme Style that the last Genuardi's in Audubon should become an Acme due to Albertsons and Safeway now having merged. Unfortunately, that most likely won't happen for two reasons (which I wouldn't expect you to have already known): first of all, Acme has a store in nearby Eagleville that is too close, and (unlike the Eagleville Acme) the Audubon Genuardi's doesn't have a pharmacy, and doesn't have any room for one.
ReplyDeleteIronically, the Acme in Eagleville is a former Super G, and Super G in Greater Philly (unlike its very successful sister chain Giant in Baltimore/DC that goes head to head with Safeway) had a fate very similar to Albertsons in Houston. The OTHER chain known as Giant, very popular in PA, in a way unofficially replaced Super G in Greater Philly, but no Super G stores themselves ended up under the PA Giant brand.
Giant has a store in Audubon that is very small and out of date. I get the feeling they will eventually demolish one of several abandoned warehouses nearby (one of which once housed the grocer Thriftway, and then the grocery supply company known as Fleming Foods) for a new store. So unfortunately, Audubon will be stuck with not one but two empty early 90's supermarkets. I could see the Giant ending up as Big Lots, and perhaps the Genuardi's will become a relocated Genuardi's Nursery (started by the same family as the supermarket chain, but long since separate) to replace their current store in Norristown.
Oh and sorry to post twice, but I meant to ask sooner... do you think Kroger will eventually buy the combined Albertsons/Safeway? I have an almost certain feeling they will, because other than non-core Kroger divisions (such as Fred Meyer, Ralphs, King Soopers, City Market, Baker's, Turkey Hill, and Littman Jewelers) there's very little or no overlap between Kroger and Albertsons/Safeway. In fact, it almost seems like that would be on purpose, because (just one example) Virginia is a state with both Safeway and Kroger, but they don't overlap in the state, and Acme was once in the state but is long gone.
ReplyDeleteTexas is a state I do have to say will require divestitures for this new merger to work. I think Randalls and Tom Thumb should be sold to the Louisiana grocer Rouses, who can restore the Randalls and Tom Thumb stores to their former family-owned status and prestige. Safeway really, really soiled the two chains' names. I could see the Randalls Flagship stores being renamed Rouses Flagship.
The Albertsons, Acme, Jewel/Jewel-Osco, Shaw's, Star Market, Safeway, Vons, Pavilions, Pak N $ave Foods, and Carrs names I think all will be replaced by Kroger, but not until maybe 2020.
No way. That's just not going to happen anytime soon. Kroger was rumored to buy both Albertsons (in 2006) and Safeway (in 2014) and passed on both, probably for good reason. Safeway and Albertsons has a little more than half the volume Kroger does, but they're just getting started, and if such a thing does come to past, no way it will be before 2020 unless the combined company fails immediately. They also won't rebrand the other names, because not even Albertsons did that in the 7 years they had the whole group together, and Texas won't be the only state to require divestitures. The East Coast now has Harris-Teeter in the Washington DC area, Texas would be mulched (except for Austin, where Randalls operates but Kroger doesn't), Hawaii could be trouble (Safeway has had a presence for years but Kroger is entering), Southern California (Ralphs), and a bunch of other places I'm probably forgetting.
DeleteRandalls and Tom Thumb will be going under local management and that won't un-do years of damage and restore them to market share leaders, but it will stem the damage so it can grow again. I don't think Pak N Save Foods has a future (they'll probably all rebrand to Safeway eventually), but if Kroger was to buy a big company, I'd say it would be the rest of SuperValu, because SVU has Shoppers Food & Pharmacy in the DC area (plus Farm Fresh in the rest of Virginia and headed south), Cub Foods, Shop n Save (a St. Louis presence, which could be rebranded to Kroger), and the whole Sav-a-Lot chain. Their revenue is about a third of what Safeway/Albertsons does. I can't see even a merger announcement until at least 2017 at the earliest if this were to come to past, and it would certainly be funny to see both chains have Premium Fresh & Healthy stores.
Can you put me on your links list?
ReplyDeleteSupermarket Memorabilia Manual
supermarketmemorabiliamanual.blogspot.com
No, but for a couple of reasons:
Delete- I think that your "advertisement" for adding "hundreds of views to your site" or something just isn't true at the volume your site is getting. Maybe the other way around.
- I'm very selective with what I put up here as far as links go, just limiting myself to Albertsons Florida Blog and Acme Style, which are both very similar blogs to mine. There are other reasons influencing that too, which I've explained to Trent but won't go into detail.
- Your site seems a bit confused on what it wants to be. A new product package sticker with Acme on it isn't really memorabilia, and certainly not packages just a year or two old. I would only consider "memorabilia" of something at least 10 years old (and 2005 is still pretty new as far as memorabilia goes, really), maybe less if it's of a defunct chain. Sorry, a package of beans that's maybe 2 years old and a commercial found off YouTube that you didn't upload just doesn't count.
- I have a feeling that this is your first blog, and if that is indeed the case, here's some tips for you.
1. If you have a blog that is driven by original content, make sure you have enough high quality material to begin with (that's how I started this blog) and can be reasonably sustainable in the near future. If you're already running out to buy new groceries that aren't going to be "memorabilia" anytime soon, then you've run out of ideas.
2. If you're not trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator, do not run a blog for the purpose of an audience, much less a cash flow. Do it for YOUR enjoyment because if you try to go for those others, you probably never will do it and you will be miserable.
3. If you've followed both of those and still want to do it, just wait. You may just make "the big post" that will drive Google searches to your site and induce a steady readership, but the rest of the blog also has to be consistent.
Good to know. I also wonder... are any of the former Kroger stores there (some of which I know to have been the "small" greenhouse style, even though they closed as the larger greenhouses were being built) now Big Lots, as is the former Kroger at Jones and 1960 in Houston? If so, I'm assuming any Kroger-turned-Big Lots in Baton Rouge was NOT a Pic-N-Save or MacFrugal's (the former Kroger in Houston was both Pic-N-Save, MacFrugal's, and before either one was a furniture store before winding up as Big Lots), and rather was Big Lots from early on (1980-something) but would have had the older Big Lots logo... or instead, might have started as an Odd Lots. The logo for Odd Lots was the same as the early Big Lots logo.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Ahold-Delhaize merger (and thus, a Dutch-Belgian merger, ironic since Belgium broke off from the Netherlands almost 200 years ago) being talked about right now, I must say I'm not pleased. Blecch... another budget-busting supermarket merger. I'm sure both Ahold and Food Lion will close brand new, loaded stores due to this, but keep old, small, yucky ones open. The Delaware Valley won't be affected much at all with Bottom Dollar gone, but the supermarket mergers involving that area have almost always been good at "maximizing shareholder value" (gee what a load of shite) while not considering the long-term effects on the chains bought and sold, or the communities they operate in. Here are some ideas for mergers and other marketing decisions based on LOGIC and COMMON SENSE that I wish had been done (over the last 50 years!):
ReplyDelete1. Safeway (instead of buying Genuardi's and making it suck) should have bought pieces of Acme, Pathmark, and Super Fresh, closing a few overlapping stores, which then would hopefully end up as ethnic supermarkets.
2. Years and years ago, when A&P, Pantry Pride (Food Fair), and Acme Super Saver were closing stores in the Delaware Valley, these stores should have ended up as Save-A-Lot or similar chains right away, instead of being Thriftway or Shop N Bag for a period of time. And the ex-supermarkets from the four chains in richer areas should have become Whole Foods or similar chain much earlier.
3. Wegmans should have never entered. Their stores certainly have shaken up the supermarket world, and have a very loyal following, but the chain (from the state of New York) seems to not really understand the supermarket traditions of the Delaware Valley. And sure, Wegmans stores are of a gigantic size, but are filled with knickknacks and dollar store crap. Wegmans prepared foods also aren't really any good... their sushi sucks compared to Whole Foods or Trader Joe's sushi, or even Giant sushi in my experience.
4. Super G shouldn't have been forced by the FTC to leave the Delaware Valley. I would have liked seeing the Giant/Martin's stores in the region closing instead, and the overlapping Super G stores staying open. Also it would be nice if Super G thoroughly blanketed Southeastern PA the way Giant/Martin's has.
5. Super G should have bought Genuardi's instead of Giant/Martin's buying Genuardi's.
6. ShopRite should have bought Weis but should have stayed out of the Delaware Valley otherwise.
7. Grand Union should have bought any overlapping stores during the various Safeway acquisitions of Acme, Pathmark, and Super Fresh.
8. Albertsons should have entered the region in place of Wegmans.
9. Safeway should have Pak N $ave Foods stores (as they do on the West Coast) in place of some of the urban ShopRite stores where other grocers would avoid.
10. Kroger should have bought some of the older, smaller Pathmark stores (ones that perhaps started as ShopRite before Pathmark broke off from ShopRite). This would have long ago given Kroger a similar foothold in the Delaware Valley as they have in some low-income areas in the South and Midwest.
Any questions or comments?
(Part One)
Delete- I've never seen the inside of a Wegmans so I have no idea what their actual product mix holds. I don't know how much this "dollar store crap" takes up, but all supermarkets tend to have a small section dedicated to crappy toys. Their square footage certainly is large, though, and I wonder what exactly they fill it with.
- On that subject, I am IRRITATED with the latest Consumer Reports, because according to them, Acme, Jewel-Osco, Safeway, and Randalls all ranked below County Market, Winn-Dixie, ShopRite, and Aldi. Of course, it's bull#%^@ because Aldi, Costco, and DeMoulas Market Basket was above Whole Foods (among others), and then Wegmans gets #1. But I digress...
- I am confused about the Delhaize-Ahold merger (how do you pronounce Ahold? Like A-hole?), because all Delhaize is to offer is Food Lion (which isn't worth getting excited over, and doesn't exactly fit with Ahold's offerings) and Hannaford (which is in overlapping areas). At least with Safeway and Albertsons, both get a little something. Albertsons gets Texas and Northern California back, while Safeway gets more of the Northeast and Chicago back (among others). Since offing Sweetbay, I can imagine Delhaize just liquidating its U.S. holdings entirely by spinning off Food Lion and the like.
- OK, so onto the 10 comments. In some cases, logic and common sense really don't work all that well.
1. Since Safeway DID have a Eastern Division that survived the 1980s divestitures, it would make sense if they expanded north by picking off old Acme stores and the like. Unfortunately, unlike the 1980s, Safeway had higher standards for stores, the Safeway of 2001 would not be like the Safeway of 1984 which bought all those old 1950s-era Weingarten stores and reopened them in short order.
2. There's a long gap between when A&P, Acme, and others are offing stores and Whole Foods expanded to that area. By then, the areas would be need to be super-gentrified, and those buildings would need to be razed anyway.
3. Like I said, I don't know enough about Wegmans to make that call. I think Publix (which I have been to) is a bit overrated.
4. It's also difficult to really care about the 3 or so Giant stores since I really have no context on how they different or what their identity really was like. (Like, I have no Acme experience, but Acme Style has told me about it, you know?)
5. Since when did Giant/Martin buy Genuardi's?
6. ShopRite from what I've been told is kinda sucky, so okay, let's go with this one.
(Part 2)
Delete7. By 2001 (which I assume is when all this takes place, because the Genuardi's acquisition happened in 2001) Grand Union was bankrupt and was a shadow of its former self when C&S began downscaling the chain.
8. Since we're talking Albertsons and not Acme, we assume that the 1999 American Stores merger never happened. However, that would still put Albertsons geographically far away. Maybe Shaw's, but that would be only after 2004. If the 1999 merger didn't happen, then Albertsons probably could've held onto some markets. Optimistically, by 2005, Albertsons could have stores stretching from California up to Indiana and Kentucky, but that's assuming their 1990s-era expansion still holds and continues, which, realistically, couldn't.
9. Pak N Save was an acquisition by Safeway around 1990-ish. I recently read an article in the Houston library that I may or may not have a copy of, but Pak N Save was never expanded outside of its original boundaries (though apparently had some Florida locations!)
As far as I know, some PnS stores converted to Safeway but not the other way around.
10. Despite some appearances, Kroger isn't a bottom-feeder. Most of Kroger's "low-income stores" in the South and Midwest was because Kroger was there for decades. If you see an operating Kroger Greenhouse, especially one with curved exterior walls (see Groceteria for more on that), it's because it's been that way for years, probably even before the neighborhood decayed around it.
So there you have it. In short, I don't think most of it would work. Points for trying to save Genuardi's, though!
Let me clear up one thing right away: I haven't actually thought about the exact dates a lot of my hypothetical ideas would have happened. I think though that most of these would have happened sometime between 1980 and today.
ReplyDelete1. Acme, Pathmark, and Super Fresh have all closed many, many stores, and each chain is much smaller today than it once was. All three have had very irresponsible owners for a long time (A&P in the case of both Pathmark and Super Fresh). Safeway would have been a good parent for all three because on both coasts, Safeway is able to keep dozens of old, small stores open for a long time with only minor updates.
2. Whole Foods HAS in fact reused very old buildings. And the chain started 1980, which would have been the perfect time for them to have first tackled the Delaware Valley (as far as the Delaware Valley is concerned). A&P, Food Fair/Pantry Pride, Penn Fruit, Pathmark, Grand Union, and Acme Super Saver had all just closed many stores.
3. "Overrated" very much describes Wegmans. Not sure about Publix. Wegmans sells a ton of non-grocery items such as kitchenware, and the quality of it sucks.
4. Super G/Giant "south" is more upscale than Giant "north"/Martin's. Unfortunately, these chains have started to lose their identity and under Ahold have all become Stop & Shop (New England/New Jersey/New York chain) clones.
5. Giant/Martin's never "officially" bought Genuardi's, but most Genuardi's were rebranded Giant in 2012 with very few cosmetic changes. Weis (ho-hum rural PA chain) bought a number of Genuardi's where there was overlap with Giant, and two Genuardi's (one in PA and one in NJ) were torn down for Whole Foods.
6. Yep, ShopRite sucks, but their prices are the lowest, and they operate in the inner city, which Acme and Giant are both very reluctant to do. There are different ShopRite owners though (ShopRite is a franchise system, not a true chain) so some locations are way better than others.
7. Grand Union in my plan would take MOST of the former Acme/Pathmark/Super Fresh stores that closed after Safeway would have bought pieces of each chain, leaving a small few to become ethnic supermarkets.
8. I wish Albertsons had filled in the gap between Florida and the Delaware Valley.
9. A&P converted some former Super Fresh (owned by A&P) stores to Food Basics in the early 2000s, a format very similar to Pak N Save.
10. My plan for Kroger would have taken place way back in the early 80's, when Pathmark was weeding out their oldest and smallest stores. Thus, I was thinking some former Pathmark stores would end up converted to the Kroger greenhouse format. Most of these stores would be of the smaller size greenhouse variety.
Also, I meant to say before... I wish Genuardi's perhaps in the early 90's (at their peak) had bought their ultimate rival known as Clemens. The two chains were very similar all along, but Genuardi's was more upscale. Both chains would experiment with small gourmet markets. Genuardi's had a small chain called Zagara's, but it would be closed by Safeway in 2001 right after they bought Genuardi's. Almost immediately after Zagara's shut down, Clemens launched a very similar chain called FoodSource. In fact, the Zagara's flagship store was later the FoodSource flagship store. Unfortunately, FoodSource closed their several stores right before Clemens sold most of its regular stores to Giant in 2006, selling the rest that overlapped with Giant to Super Fresh.
1. Well, Super Fresh was always an A&P brand, so it can't be blamed for having "irresponsible owners" that changed hands like Pathmark or especially Acme did, but Safeway (which was arguably irresponsible themselves, destroying every regional chain they got east of California) does not pick up scraps from other retailers anymore. Yes, they purchased those old Weingarten stores in Texas, but that's what killed them there, and while Safeway tended to keep old junkers in their inventory, they already owned those stores.
ReplyDelete2. Except that's not at all how Whole Foods expanded. They were a gourmet foods store with initially tiny footprints, but expanded in a way (their non-acquired stores, that is) that hit the inner core of the metropolitan areas without expanding out to suburbs. While "old buildings" yes, technically, they did occupy, Whole Foods was not one to go into declining areas and take a 30+ year old grocery building and make it their own. They still don't, frankly.
7. By 2001, Grand Union was post-bankruptcy and on a crash course to oblivion, and they certainly weren't in any position to take junker Acme/Pathmark/Super Fresh stores. Grand Union was at one time a much better store with divisions in other areas (complete with the "Red Dot")
8. It would've taken a long time for Albertsons to expand up to the Delaware Valley without acquisitions and rebrands, if ever.
10. There isn't a "conversion to Greenhouse", because those stores were built, not made. (Impostor greenhouses exist, with a Greenhouse-like roof, but those are pretty obvious). Kroger was pulling out of a lot markets in the 1980s (Detroit, though they later returned, parts of PA that became Giant Eagle, Baton Rouge, likely others). If Kroger had pulled out in the early 1980s, I can imagine Pathmark moving in, but not the other way around.
It would probably be better if at some point in the mid-2000s, Ahold decided to spin off its holdings as an independent company and decided to work from there.
P.S.: I also left a comment on Acme Style regarding what I think is the future of Delhaize/Ahold and what it means for U.S. grocery shoppers.
ReplyDeleteI always thought Safeway was the only large supermarket chain to resist the Florida temptation. Apparently, they couldn't resist trying in some way either back in the 80's. I don't know how many Pak n' Save stores ever existed in Florida or how long they lasted as a whole here (I need to do a little more research), but I did find one former location, now an Old Time Pottery, in Casselberry. This store was built from the ground up and opened as Pak n' Save in 1986 as the only Orlando area location, and closed in 1987 due to being unprofitable. I'm not sure if this building was something else in between Pak n' Save and Old Time Pottery (the building does now have a closed off garden center on the left side of the building, unless Pak n' Save sold plants). You seem to be more familiar with Safeway history and architecture than myself if you want to take a look at the building: http://goo.gl/68Pofb
ReplyDeleteI just wrote a post with more information that I found on Safeway's Florida division over on my blog.
DeleteOnly maybe a third of the stores I hoped would end up as Whole Foods were in "declining areas". As for the difference between Giant and Giant, I ought to explain the history of those chains without using a timeline, which would make the history more confusing. Ahold USA has a very, very convoluted history, that's for sure. I still have some unresolved questions about it.
ReplyDeleteI'm using my aunt's iPad right now, thus I appear as her. Here's a basic history of Ahold USA subsidiaries, in no particular order:
ReplyDeleteGiant Carlisle: has owned Martin's since 1970, has been owned by Ahold since 1981. Has only really been a household name since around 1984 or 1985. Has had the same logo since at least 1985. The logo used to be almost always orange, but since 2000 has been red. Giant crept into the Delaware Valley slowly, gradually working its way in during the 80's and early 90's. Until 2000, Giant stores were mostly very bland in terms of decor or appearances. Giant has bought stores from Super Fresh, Pathmark, Genuardi's, and Clemens.
Giant Landover: has been owned by Ahold since 1998. This sale led the FTC to require the Super G stores in PA to be sold or closed. Ironically, the Edwards stores in NJ, once part of the Giant PA/Martin's division, were converted to either Super G (the stores in south NJ) or Stop & Shop (the stores in north NJ) in 2001, but the Super G stores in south NJ were either closed or converted to Stop & Shop anyway in 2005. In 2007, the former Super G/Stop & Shop stores were sold to ShopRite, as these stores were a failure under Stop & Shop. The Delaware Super G stores were renamed Super Giant (perhaps to appeal to Baltimore/DC folks) in 2005 once the NJ Super G stores were renamed Stop & Shop, but the name was shortened to Giant when the fruit bowl logo (also used by Stop & Shop) debuted in 2007. The "Super Giant" logo was the same basic logo as the one used by both Giant MD and Super G. Today, a few Giant PA stores are called Super Giant, an attempt to compete with Wegmans and all the hype. One Super Giant is a former Home Depot that had relocated.
Stop & Shop: Sold to Ahold in 1995 or 1996. This New England chain once owned Bradlees, Medimart, and Jewelcor at one time, but it would sell off Bradlees and Jewelcor, which would both eventually GOB, and sold Medimart to Walgreens. It also once franchised Valero stations on the Delmarva peninsula, but I believe has since sold those rights to a more anonymous company. Sadly, Stop & Shop and Super G have both become really bland, dull chains under Ahold.
I found a 1993 article about AppleTree going out of business that listed the Pearland store on Main Street (now split between Big Lots and Office Depot) being sold to Randalls. Also, a more modern Randalls on Broadway in Pearland closed in 2005 according to another article. And a current Randalls in Pearland does exist. Do you know the relationship between these three? I'm especially curious as to when the former Safeway/AppleTree building's life as a Randalls ended.
ReplyDeleteSad news: the last Genuardi's (Audubon, PA) closed today. And I don't have much hope for it to become anything other than a flea market. Anyway, I was wondering... isn't it a bit odd that the former Albertsons at Westheimer and Voss in Houston never became another supermarket? I'm surprised Whole Foods didn't open there, as the area is very rich. The former Albertsons (if Bing Maps view is up to date) is now split between REI and a vacant Linens N Things. Perhaps the Linens N Things portion is big enough to become a Whole Foods in the next year or two?
ReplyDeleteYeah, that aerial is WAYY out of date. It's been a DSW for at least the last year and a half (probably longer than that). Funny story--I've actually been in that building in December 2013, and I knew it was an Albertsons at the time (but wasn't thinking of taking pictures yet). Since I do know about when it opened and closed, I was thinking I could write about it nonetheless.
DeleteGenuardi's fate was sealed before the merger, really, because the lease was about to run out (but Safeway didn't want to tell people that), and they would've either not renewed it or renewed it but converted the store to a Safeway. Since it wasn't listed as one of the brands Albertsons/Safeway controlled, it should've been assumed that it was already doomed, and the presence of Acme in the region ensured that Genuardi's was destined for oblivion.
The Westheimer location was a kind of cool and odd location, it was co-located with a Venture discount department store. Yeah, I definitely need to add that soon.
Was this Venture later a Kmart? Also, what's even sadder than the way Safeway poisoned Genuardi's is what Safeway did to Zagara's, a health food chain of five stores owned by Genuardi's. They closed the flagship Zagara's (less than a year old, and in a beautifully restored John Wanamaker building) immediately after buying Genuardi's. Then they spun off the others, but Zagara's couldn't survive on its own and went out of business in 2003.
DeleteI saw your archive of Houston fast food. It's wonderful and I would be able to contribute locations for 25 of the chains in it. Just a suggestion: you might add Pizza Hut to it. While the awful delivery/carryout Pizza Hut counters are everywhere, the old sitdown Pizza Hut restaurants (very nostalgic for me and I'm sure a lot of other people) all over the country have been closing by the dozens since at least 2000. And I can name at least three in Greater Houston that are gone.
The Venture never became a Kmart, there was a Super Kmart just down the road at the time.
DeleteAs for locations, I intend to add more chains to it, but I had those removed so everything could be hyperlinked. I'll check out Pizza Hut, though I do have a resource to help me get started. More info soon.
Not sure if this would be too interesting to you, but I can provide lists of when every Walmart, Kmart, and Target store opened before 2004 opened. Unfortunately the lists don't cover remodels, expansions, etc but I can help with that part. But if supermarkets are your passion and Walmart/Kmart/Target aren't, I totally understand.
ReplyDeleteWalmart: http://www.econ.umn.edu/~holmes/data/WalMart/store_openings.csv
ReplyDeleteTarget: http://www.jobisez.com/edi-igs/Target/Store%20Addresses%20by%20Store%20Number.pdf
ReplyDeleteKmart: https://www.google.com/fusiontables/DataSource?docid=1pS-9ne_tmJm4UpALBdpvUZkFqhG6dJ_YRp8bSoI#rows:id=1
ReplyDeleteAmes: http://amesfanclub.com/store.loc.htm
ReplyDelete